Welcome to this week’s episode of the Vitally You® podcast where we speak to Deepa Kannan, Functional and Lifestyle Practitioner, author (upcoming book with HarperCollins 2022), yoga instructor and host of the Sleep Whisperer Podcast. Deepa shares her deep knowledge of sleep as a vitally important variable to longevity. We also discuss how she purposefully blends science with ancient wisdom in her work with clients. Deepa emphasizes the importance of recognizing and acknowledging the complex and diverse immune capabilities of each individual. More specifically, we each have our own responses to certain medications and there is no one-size-fits-all diet. This is known as bio-individuality, meaning that each person requires highly individualized treatments. Join us on this week’s episode as we speak to Deepa about how to optimize sleep and your future health.
Every individual is unique; the way we eat, how our brain functions, our likes, dislikes, and the way in which our body responds to specific medical treatments. Knowing your priorities and what works well with their body prior to embarking on seeking out medical treatment is a seemingly intuitive approach. However, our current healthcare system has not been designed to adequately support each individual and their unique needs. It uses a one-size-fits-all approach. This can lead to the worsening of one’s symptoms as well as the associated frustration of finding a diagnosis. Deepa Kaanan believes that there is an imminent need to individualize the patient-care model and she tackles this issue through her functional medicine company Phytothrive.
Deepa began her journey with her brand when she began to feel frustrated with her own health journey. Despite conducting lab work and speaking with several doctors, she was unable to find a diagnosis for her own ailments. This experience propelled her to become a champion for a more individualized and balanced approach to wellness. Deepa is renowned for her work in this field, and her articles have been shared by the father of functional medicine, Dr. Mark Hyman. Join us on this week’s episode as we speak to Deepa about her masterful understanding of human anatomy to offer true bio-individual mind, body, and spirit remedies.
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[00:00:00] Dana Frost: Hello everybody and welcome to Vitally You®, feeling younger while growing older. I'm Dana and I'm your host. And I am so delighted and honored to have someone I consider very dear. She is a nutrition colleague of mine. Her name is Deepa Kaanan. She lives in India and Deepa is an author. She is a therapeutic yoga practitioner, Phytothrive is her functional medicine practice, where she merges deep science of the functional world with deep symbolism of ancient wisdom. Deepa has a masterful understanding of the human anatomy with a cohesive understanding of physiology to offer true bio-individual mind, body, and spirit. Her articles have been shared by Dr. Mark Hyman, who I consider to be the father of functional medicine.
He's a 13 time New York Times best-selling author, and I am so excited to congratulate Deepa on her upcoming book with Harper Collins, The Sleep Whisperer. So Deepa, welcome to the podcast. I'm so honored to have you here. Thank you for joining us today to talk about how sleep impacts health and longevity.
[00:01:23] Deepa Kaanan: Thank you Dana. It's an honor to be here. And, of course, we always have lovely conversations and when you mentioned functional nutrition colleague of mine I also felt like I adding both you gave, so we have one more thing in common. So, um, it's very exciting to be here and it's always lovely to talk about.
[00:01:47] Dana Frost: Yes. Well, I really enjoyed listening to your podcast. You're almost coming up on one year anniversary of hosting The Sleep Whisperers Podcast, and I can only imagine the wealth of information that you've gleaned from your many guests. But first, what I'm really curious about is what sparked your curiosity and interest in starting a podcast where you dove into sleep as the topic.
[00:02:13] Deepa Kaanan: Well, I think I should give away a little secret that you are familiar with the host of The Broken Brain Podcast, which is now called Dhru Purohit Podcast is Dr. Mark Hyman's business partner. So we back in 2020, I had a call with him and spoke to him about my upcoming book, which wasn't announced then.
He said to me, you should start a podcast on sleep, and that's how it started. And of course, we never spoke about that, but really I think he was an instrument. Maybe the universe was guiding, what was meant to be, but that's how it actually happened. And of course, I did have the interest specifically in sleep way before that, because the book was actually written by me three years ago.
And then subsequently I've read it about four times and I still feel I wanted to keep changing things maybe last minute. So a scene has been in my heart, in my head for about two years now.
[00:03:26] Dana Frost: That's really interesting Deepa. Can you tell us a little bit about your own journey with sleep as a challenge in your own health.
[00:03:37] Deepa Kaanan: Sure. So they would actually three very clear events in my life. The first was, as a child, when I had these severe skin autoimmune attacks with my dry skin would be inflamed or I was on steroids, which impacted sleep. The second was being in this bad marriage for eight years. Always being on high alert, always looking for waiting for the other shoe to drop, waiting for something to go wrong.
So it was perpetually years of this bad marriage and sympathetic dominance and all three were quite impactful on sleep. And I think it's only been in the last five years that I've really understood that you cannot ignore poor sleep and that you can do something about it.
[00:04:27] Dana Frost: I really agree with you Deepa.
I went my whole life until my mid-forties and I had no sleep issues. And after about 10 years of having consistent daily stress, my sleep was impacted and my hormones were well, we know sleep is impacted by hormones, and a lot of things started to fall apart when I stopped sleeping really well. So that's very, very true.
It's one of the tipping points. I think when we have health challenges is the quality of our sleep.
[00:05:01] Deepa Kaanan: Yes.
[00:05:03] Dana Frost: So that's really interesting. So then how were you able to unwind, you know, getting out of like, what were the things you were able to do to get out of this pattern of fight and flight out of sympathetic, into parasympathetic and begin, as you say, to restore your pattern of sleep.
[00:05:22] Deepa Kaanan: Honestly, Dana I don't think I even knew what was the autonomic system. I had no concept that I was sympathetic dominant even about eight years ago. I would describe to my husband about feeling as if I dreamed was buzzing in my fingers and my doors, but I didn't really know. I didn't have a name for me. Um, but I think, uh, starting the functional medicine approach, is what tipped the scale for me because it was only after that, that I started to understand how to break the part.
And as I said to you before we started having this conversation, uh, officially that even right up to this moment, I'm still improving what can be done to help me stay in that parasympathetic state.
[00:06:20] Dana Frost: Yeah. That's really interesting Deepa because I think that sometimes if we are in a healing profession, or if we, you know, let's say we're a personal trainer, or we are a yoga instructor or a meditation instructor there can be shame if we have these challenges in our own lives.
And we are all people. So we're all having similar human experiences just because we actually have the tools doesn't mean that we don't encounter stressful situations that really challenge our own health and also the tools that we have. So I really love that you pointed that out, that, Hey, I was a yoga instructor and, and yet I was struggling with my sleep.
Let's go to the other end of the spectrum. Can you describe a good night's sleep?
[00:07:08] Deepa Kaanan: Absolutely. And Dana I think that's also because in the sleep world itself, there is so much emphasis on research and you and I know that the person's evidence is a big part of everything. So I think there's no such thing that you need eight hours sleep.
You need six hours sleep. Research shows that you need nine hours. There's nothing like that because we truly are very unique. Each of us has different needs for sleep based on our levels of stress, how a body is behaving. So I would say a good night's sleep, for me, the first thing that's really important is timing--more than how long you sleep.
It's better you're going to bed. So I would say sleep should begin somewhere around 10:00 PM. And then it could be where ideally you do not have to wake up to an alarm. So if you have the luxury to let your body be tapped when it's naturally meant to do so, and a lot of us don't do that, I didn't do it for the last 20 years, it's only in the last one year of COVID and switching to working virtually that I've actually done this for myself. Uh, and you know, Zen Buddhism, just wake up when you want to, don't wake up to an alarm. So I think that's step two is to try to create a conducive environment that you can allow your body to wake up naturally when it feels like, and this will differ day today.
So maybe one day you're gonna wake up in seven hours, maybe one day you need 10 hours and that's perfectly fine. At the end of the day what matters is, how do you feel in terms of energy? And how do you feel in terms of feeling motivated to go through your day?
[00:09:05] Dana Frost: I really love what you're saying, Deepa, because it really leans into bio-individuality and we are all different.
Yeah, it is. You said how you feel when you wake up, do you feel rested? Because for one person we do have, we, there is a, we have different needs for the amount of sleep, but what you're saying, when you go to bed at 10, it's really when it's dark. So that would be across the globe more or less, 10 o'clock is a time to go to bed.
How would that be? Like this time of the year in the Northern countries where it's light. My husband and I went to Russia a few years ago and you know, it was light for such a long, you know, the majority of the day. How do you speak into people who live in those climates at this time of the year when it's light for such a large portion of the day?
[00:10:03] Deepa Kaanan: Well, I think if they are getting overall more light than they are getting darkness, then it is still important that they have a cutoff for themselves and probably block out blackout their room and see that they create the conducive environment where they're still able to experience that what darkness does to the body.
And it's important to establish regularity. So even though you mentioned that it is light for so much longer in a specific area of the world, it's important to create regularity. So let's say it's 11:00 PM or midnight for somebody and maybe it's midnight, 11:00 PM to 7:00 AM, but they still need to try and bring in that regularity on every day of the week and not shift this too drastically on weekdays and weekends, because I see a lot of people struggling with sleep energy more through the week, simply because they're shifting this rhythm so dramatically on the weekend and therefore when they come back to it on the week, it jars their system.
[00:11:15] Dana Frost: Yeah, the body loves regularity and rhythm. It responds really well when it knows what to expect. And that to me brings me into heart rate variability and how healthy heart rate variability is rhythmic and that's because really the body loves the rhythm.
It likes to know what to expect. And so I guess it would be the same for sleep. What happens chemically when it starts to get dark?
[00:11:41] Deepa Kaanan: The brain has certain things programmed for itself. So light and melatonin shares antagonistic relationships. So when it starts to get dark, it's when your brain secretes melatonin and lowers cortisol that allows you to then get sleep drive or the ability to fall asleep. And then there are so many other aspects to it as well because one of the things that I see a lot of people struggling with sleep going through is that they have their vitamin D. vitamin D has an antagonistic relationship with melatonin.
So if you take vitamin D in the night, you stop the secretion of melatonin for the next 12 hours. So sleep can be deeply impacted and they're all dependent on vitamin D today that this timing of vitamin D becomes so critical to melatonin. One of the things that is very popular today is blue light blocking glasses, which are aimed at cutting off light from your screen.
And the belief is that. Yeah, identify the difference between natural light and the light from your screen. So when you hit, you're ready now with this slide, your brain starts to release cortisol, thinking that it's morning prepared you to wake up, but do you not as someone I interviewed on the podcast, who's the professor.
Researching into blue light being a myth that actually, there's no such thing that if you expose your light. I used to blue light in the night that sleep was affected that it's just fueling an entire sleep industry. If you think of the Eastern world, maybe India many, many years ago before they mentioned of electricity here or the availability, we would have candles. And I remember this even in my own childhood that we just have dinner and then you start to feel sleepy pretty soon. And it's only after we started having access to lights that this started stretching, then started stretching. We would typically wake up as you hear the, um, birds chirping and start to see the sun rising you'd wake up naturally. And all that has shifted today.
[00:14:18] Dana Frost: Yeah, this is really true. It's an interesting, um, challenge between like living in us, where you live, how, where you live. Can really impact your sleep based on your access to light in the city. But there are so many disturbances you may not hear the birds. You may not hear those natural sounds that come from nature when you're in a big city and you're in a big high rise where the windows are closed, because those are natural. Those sounds not just the light, but also the sounds that come from nature as the day begins to wake up are also really nice indicators to the body that it's time to be awake. Is there anything else that you recognize as an, as an important to a conducive environment for sleeping?
[00:15:09] Deepa Kaanan: One of the things they notice as a general rule is that there's a lot of focus of course, on light and getting your body adapted to the right circadian rhythm.
But there's not that much emphasis on, uh, foods that make you lose sleep. Foods that help you to sleep better. What's happening in the physiology of the body? What's the metabolic chaos that's going on in someone which is preventing them from falling asleep? And we talk everywhere about how poor sleep impacts your ability to recover and heal, but rarely do we speak about what are the root causes of course, sleep themselves.
Uh, so that's the area that my work is focused on, on teasing apart these root causes of poor sleep in each person.
[00:16:02] Dana Frost: And so do you mind speaking into some of the root causes of poor sleep you've discovered?
[00:16:08] Deepa Kaanan: Yeah, sure, absolutely. Uh, that's another controversial area. And recently that's been a lot of popularity over the sleep types and there's been a lot of social media coverage on how we are all not meant to have the same, uh, chronobiology, circadian rhythms. Some of us are meant to be the night owls and it's natural too, for us to want to sleep at midnight. Some of us are meant to wake up very early. I've been very skeptical about this concept of sleep chronotypes.
I really don't think that--yes, I do believe that that's a small percentage of where our genetics may predispose us to words being this night owl to someone who sleeps very different. Well, personally, send me a night owl and I would love to look at their dreaming function and look at all what's going on that's to getting them to be that night out.
But apart from that, I do believe circadian rhythm is very important that it's a big group because when someone has dysfunction, circadian rhythm, and I would put so much emphasis being in sync with light and dark of nature. When we say light and dark, but not talking about artificial lights.
And then for sure adrenal function, because that was what was a big reason why I didn't fall asleep. So if someone has experienced drama, any kind of a bad relationship, anything which puts them into a fight or flight, let's say they're taking care of a loved one who's very ill. Anything that's keeping them buzzing and needing to be a lot all the time that's the big root cause of poor sleep. And for sure if you're in any situation in life, which is raising cortisol. So of course this mentioned adrenal function, but when you have any situation that's raising cortisol then there's a likelihood that you're not releasing oxytocin. That is a calming down hormone, which does help with sleep. For sure, your diet. If there's an inflammatory diet that it's triggering blood sugar fluctuations, then no one's going to fall asleep or they're going to fall asleep and wake up at 1:00 AM, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM, and then struggle to go back to sleep. Uh, if there's a certain genetic metabolic issue, uh, I think the COMT gene triggers a lot of sleep issues if someone's in a, not able to metabolize catecholamines.
And of course, as women, if there's chaos happening with estrogen, progesterone balance, or if there's no testosterone, which is causing you to have a leaky bladder. A leaky bladder is something that keeps women up all the time. And any kind of pain, whether there is pain in your shoulder, pain in the legs, like Restless Leg Syndrome, that itchy feeling in the leg, which is a big reason why people don't sleep. Temperature fluctuations, where you're either feeling too hot, too cold.
There are temperatures to be exactly like for you to be able to fall asleep. Thyroid issues, hot flashes, I mean, on and on and on. There's so much.
[00:19:51] Dana Frost: Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that if someone is having a sleep disturbance, it's really important to not try to treat the sleep. But to try to determine why what is the root cause of the sleep and then treat those root causes.
You've said so many interesting things about sleep and really helping us to understand the importance of looking at what are the root causes of sleep. I'm just curious because you've spoken to so many amazing guest on your podcast, what are some of the highlights? What are some of the interviews that really stand out that gave you maybe an aha moment?
[00:20:32] Deepa Kaanan: I think, I mean, really they know there've been so many excellent guests and they've, I think a main thing is that they've come from such diverse backgrounds. So they're not all from the sleep world. You got teachers, so many of them, but one thing I noticed, which is very common in what a lot of people say is that stress is such a big deal and it's very important and they've all offer their own tools as to how to better help your body cope with stress, how to make yourself more resilient. And that can include breathwork, a slow practice of yoga, and that's very key as well because I see a lot of people who are doing intense yoga practices, like an Ashtanga class in the evening, and then they struggle to wind down because energy can also be overactive after that.
What everyone did have in common was timing is important for almost everything. In terms of when do you exercise? When do you go to sleep? Uh, how do you eat your food? And light of course is a very big deal and how much, and we are living in a virtual world now, and things are going to remain remote. So all the more we are going to be exposing ourselves to light and on our screen.
So what can we do to offset that? Which is why I'm cautious about research, which debunks the blue light myth and says it doesn't impact because truly I think we should be doing all that we can possibly to protect ourselves. And I know for a fact that there's research. Uh, that validates a blue light blocker and not, I do feel a difference when I use it in the night and it does help to not mess up my sleep.
So there's no harm and these are tools that are not going to harm you for sure. So it's probably good to use some of that input and do pay attention to blood sugar. And I think one thing, which I keep telling everybody is that breakfast, your sleep begins with breakfast. So what you eat at breakfast decides how you're going to see that night and people struggling with sleep issues mainly don't do well with any amount of starch or sugar in the first meal of the day, because then they are creating this chaos right through the day.
[00:23:07] Dana Frost: You just gave us a little clinical pearl about the carbs in the morning for someone who's having sleep struggle.
So could you give us some pearls when it comes to nutrition and sleep?
[00:23:20] Deepa Kaanan: Yes. Absolutely. So Dana I think if you have a big framework as to what helps sleep, the sleep begins at all three meals. What works really well at breakfast is something like a keto style meal, which is quite high in fat and moderate in protein.
And then low in sugar. So my breakfast everyday is just a cup of coconut milk, cashew butter, chikory powder, and a little bit of stevia and collagen. And so that's my morning breakfast every single day, which is really very, very stabilizing to blood sugar all day long. And then I think lunch is something, whether it's plant-based or omnivore, that doesn't matter, but something which is like a launch powered high-fiber salad or a soup.
So usually a large bowl, which has about four to five different non-starchy vegetables, some nuts and seeds. And then anything at night with a little bit of healthy carbohydrates, like sweet potato alongside the protein and vegetables, not so high in fat, but making sure it's got a lot of fiber from non-starchy vegetables, ample protein so that you're able to actually keep blood sugar stable through the night and having a little bit of complex carbohydrates from sweet potato brown, a little bit of brown rice so that you actually get some tryptophan to convert, to serotonin and convert to melatonin. So that's actually my sleep framework for eating.
[00:25:11] Dana Frost: I really liked that. And even all of the training I've had with nutrition, I had never heard this bit about low carb in the morning.
You know, more of, again, starting the day with more of a keto recipe. It sounds very comforting. You know, there's one more thing that I think is really important to address and you touch on it when you talk about, um, sugar, but talk to us about what the role alcohol plays in sleep because this was something I had to confront.
[00:25:42] Deepa Kaanan: Yes, yes. And there is a lot of misconception around alcohol. And, um, one of the things that I commonly hear Dana from people who are struggling to fit the pieces back of their poor sleep is friends dissuading the challenges and telling them to just drink a glass of wine and then take a sleeping pill alongside and making remarks like I've been doing this for 10 years and I'm still alive and this can be very, very dangerous.
So the first thing that I would bring caution to is even if someone wants to have alcohol is never to combine it with sleeping pills. That's really dangerous. So please don't do that if you're out there. Uh, and if at all you really cannot give up your glass of wine a few times a week, then making sure that you have a little bit after you've eaten your dinner, never on an empty stomach.
Uh, the sugars keep your bloodstream and wreck havoc the whole night, and remember that every glass of alcohol that you drink is going to increase dehydration. So you're going to feel more energy loss in the night. They never believe it. You're gonna feel your body's gonna slip into a mode of emergency where it's going to wake you up seeking out food.
So it's definitely going to be a big no-no. And if you are really keen to piece back poor sleep and looking towards improving sleep quality in your building to do whatever it takes, I would say ease out the alcohol and keep it out for about six months until you've done the work and brought your body back to a state of balance.
[00:27:34] Dana Frost: Well, I think that's wonderful advice because I know for me what was happening when I was having this health crisis, I only would have alcohol maybe once maximum twice a week, but I would wake up in the middle of the night and I was really thirsty and I couldn't get back to sleep. And I've just do tracking, I've noticed that that's what alcohol will do to me. It'll wake me up in the middle of the night. Well, Deepa, this has just been such an interesting conversation with you. And, as you know, my platform is really about feeling younger while growing older. And how do you see sleep as one of the components to healthy aging and longevity?
[00:28:21] Deepa Kaanan: I think sleep is everything because it's only in deep sleep that you are releasing growth hormone, which is really what is making you regenerate and feel younger, look younger. And, um, it's in that deep sleep where, I mean, if you have about 40% of your whole night's sleep as deep sleep, that's the time where your body is going through this deep tissue repair immune function.
Uh, just rehauling the whole system. So, I mean, who doesn't look amazing after a great night's sleep, you just wake up with radiant skin and feeling so alive. So I think sleep is definitely a big part of longevity and it should not be ignored. If someone wants to be motivated and yes, it's going to give you better skin.
It's going to make you look much more amazing.
[00:29:23] Dana Frost: I agree 100% when I'm getting sleep. I just feel younger. I feel better. I feel more hopeful. I feel like I'm more radiant. And again, when I had my, my storm of a health crisis, I just was tired and I felt older. I was losing my hair.
Sleep is protective. I really believe that sleep is something that's very protective to our full body system. Body, mind, spirit.
[00:29:50] Deepa Kaanan: Yeah longevity is linked to the lymphatic system, uh, and lymph system that is very, yeah, robust and circulating.
You can see, you see the difference on how somebody looks versus their lymphatic condition. So for sure that, uh, if you can't, if you don't have good sleep, you can't even exercise which moves lymph. It's a vicious cycle. If you context the size, then subsequently sleep gets messed up so there's so many connections and sleep is definitely in the middle of all of this.
[00:30:31] Dana Frost: Yes, it is. I love that. Sleep is in the middle of all of this. It's in the middle of all of this. I really love that Deepa. So to you personally, what does feeling younger? When I say feeling younger while growing older, what does that mean to you personally?
[00:30:48] Deepa Kaanan: I think Dana just becoming comfortable with who you are not being guided by anyone who made you feel uncomfortable with yourself. And we already go through, we have a challenging relationship where we feel bad, inadequate. We feel we are not enough. We feel we'll never be enough. And I think if you reach that stage where you just feel you're great, as you are, how you look, how your hair is, how you, this color of your skin, the height, I mean, you're just comfortable with your personality.
You know, who you really are. Um, and you reach that point, then life looks like, I mean, you're just so useful. I feel I've never felt younger as I do right now at this moment.
[00:31:44] Dana Frost: I love that Deepa. Yes. I love that cause it's not how, it's not external. It's not how we look externally. It's really how we feel internally.
And so that is a beautiful note to close on. I want to thank you for your sharing your pearls of wisdom with us. And I also want to congratulate you on your upcoming book Sleep Whisperer. We all will look very much forward to buying your book and just having that in our library. So thank you, Deepa.
[00:32:18] Deepa Kaanan: Thank you Dana it was humbling to be here and I loved our conversation as to all of these.
[00:32:25] Dana Frost: It is always a pleasure to have a conversation with you, Deepa. So everyone, streaming love from my heart to yours. Have a wonderful day wherever this podcast reaches you.